tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-14710344.post6865684666423840434..comments2023-11-03T05:46:44.728-04:00Comments on RevGalBlogPals: Ask the Matriarch - Drowning in Paperwork...Not!Stephanie Anthony/She Revhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/10089531643725874239noreply@blogger.comBlogger13125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-14710344.post-18270532531728873992008-09-19T16:01:00.000-04:002008-09-19T16:01:00.000-04:00I just picked up a copy of Anthony G. Pappas' Ente...I just picked up a copy of Anthony G. Pappas' Entering the World of the Small Church and in the introduction it talks about serving a church with no budget, and the mentality that is behind it. Check with the Alban Institute for a copy if you're interested!Shift Workerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03961937566139569807noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-14710344.post-11506493827043745942008-09-19T09:24:00.000-04:002008-09-19T09:24:00.000-04:00Is there a church constitution? That also can be ...Is there a church constitution? That also can be a starting point: who is responsible for what? etc.LoieJhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01977264499770654307noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-14710344.post-22777099670531469822008-09-18T21:18:00.000-04:002008-09-18T21:18:00.000-04:00I'm absolutely gobsmacked by the notion of a churc...I'm absolutely gobsmacked by the notion of a church not having a budget. Who pays the bills? Surely that person must have some idea how much money is available and what the priorities are for spending it. Or could it be that after paying the pastor's salary and the basic bills there is nothing left to budget?Rev Dr Momhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11607665272056430039noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-14710344.post-2592792711731475612008-09-18T19:17:00.000-04:002008-09-18T19:17:00.000-04:00I'm guessing this might be a church that is either...I'm guessing this might be a church that is either non-denominational or belongs to a looser confederation, such as Baptist for example. In this case there might not be any supervision from outside the congregation. Otherwise, I think there is some good advice here. My personal advice would be to make sure there is one person who collects money and one person who disburses, both of whom are overseen and never the twain shall meet. As for the other types of records, appeal to the historical sensibilities of the members, perhaps items have been kept at people's homes?? Good luck!Auntie Knickershttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08854138665883068803noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-14710344.post-83406569425412583072008-09-18T17:52:00.000-04:002008-09-18T17:52:00.000-04:00DANGER Will Robinson DANGER! (arms flailing wildly...DANGER Will Robinson DANGER! (arms flailing wildly)<BR/><BR/>This is a sign of a congregation with problems. In our denomination it would be a congregation bound for a review by PResbytery.<BR/><BR/>IT is not just a stewardship issue, it is a responsibility issue. ANd one of the roles of pastor is administrator. Mind you some of us handle that part better/more easily than others.<BR/><BR/>I would be caslling someone in the wider church for advice at the very least.Gordhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03767921257861340046noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-14710344.post-91529513210109727812008-09-18T16:38:00.000-04:002008-09-18T16:38:00.000-04:00I think a great way to frame this conversation is ...I think a great way to frame this conversation is as a stewardship responsibility. Use the parable of the landowner who gives his three servants money and then comes back later to see what they have done with it... there is an accounting to be made! <BR/><BR/>I'm in a sort of similiar situation with my church. We have a budget, but I don't know that we have seriously thought about it in the past few years before I got here (maybe even further back). I'm meeting with the finance committee tonight to draft our budget for next year, a task that was normally done by the treasurer adding a percent to the previous years figures. <BR/><BR/>For small churches, I think this is especially difficult. There just isn't that much money to go around and most likely 80% of that money goes towards the building and the pastor's salary... but it is a conversation that needs to take place as we try to move our congregations to focus more outward... how can we plan and make goals for our resources so that we can together further God's kingdom? That's what a budget is all about. <BR/><BR/>Prayers requested for my meeting tonight!!!Katie Z.https://www.blogger.com/profile/01143363139786424632noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-14710344.post-55391893887707210092008-09-18T15:21:00.000-04:002008-09-18T15:21:00.000-04:00I know on our side of the street we have to have a...I know on our side of the street we have to have an annual independent audit.LutheranChikhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02685566332651377907noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-14710344.post-86046421563950046832008-09-18T14:52:00.000-04:002008-09-18T14:52:00.000-04:00Wow! In the PC(USA) we pretty much *have* to keep ...Wow! In the PC(USA) we pretty much *have* to keep our session records in order because we have annual inspections of them by the next higher governing body. While that doesn't say that it has to include the budget, I can't imagine a presbytery letting records with no budget slip by without some sort of investigation into why it isn't there.Rivkahhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07595316806953091704noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-14710344.post-44428756323288232432008-09-18T14:33:00.000-04:002008-09-18T14:33:00.000-04:00Just as a sidebar: FT and I want to include (with ...Just as a sidebar: FT and I want to include (with our pastor's blessing) church council minutes on our church website, but are having an incredibly hard time getting our hands on them. As noted by others, I think this is less a case of malice than of disorganization. Although we have had a couple people ask us -- interestingly, through third parties -- WHY we want to publish our council minutes online.LutheranChikhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02685566332651377907noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-14710344.post-44633960513936617802008-09-18T14:31:00.001-04:002008-09-18T14:31:00.001-04:00[raising hand] While I've never been in a position...[raising hand] While I've never been in a position to have to deal with the details of church administration (thank you, Jesus) -- Fisher's Net, an ELCA-related clearinghouse for online/distance learning opportunities, has some courses available on just such stuff. You don't have to be in the ELCA to avail yourselves of the courses listed...and in fact Fisher's Net is a portal into a website called Faith and Wisdom, that provides the same service on an ecumenical scale.<BR/><BR/>Here's some info on the administration course offering:<BR/><BR/>http://moodle.fishersnet.net/course/category.php?id=33:LutheranChikhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02685566332651377907noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-14710344.post-27270443346242615272008-09-18T14:31:00.000-04:002008-09-18T14:31:00.000-04:00Wow. The questions could have been written by me, ...Wow. The questions could have been written by me, but it wasn't. The details are almost exactly the same as my situation, except that I am on an interim placement and will only be here four months. I have also found that the parish records (marriages, baptisms, deaths, etc.) have not been adequately kept for the past four years.<BR/><BR/>My plan is much prayer and a meeting with my bishop. I'll be watching this space for more comments too.Anna Sorensonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12282584909692804697noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-14710344.post-17183058836532918772008-09-18T10:43:00.000-04:002008-09-18T10:43:00.000-04:00IN ADDITION --At the very least, they had to file ...IN ADDITION --<BR/><BR/>At the very least, they had to file tax records! They had to have some kind of accounting or audit or bookeeping to continue to be a non-profit!!<BR/><BR/>to NOT have a budget - NOT have a paper trail is very disconcerting and dangerous. By law, every non-profit must have books which can be inspected by a stakeholder... and the IRS.<BR/><BR/>Do not let this go, for the good of their reputation, and yours...<BR/><BR/>I actually annoyed a senior pastor extensively on this when I asked for this information for a seminary assignment. He claimed that "everyone in the church trusts" how the church handles their money. We no longer attend that church...<BR/><BR/>DebDebhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07077252518911858612noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-14710344.post-90253569001288182282008-09-18T09:47:00.000-04:002008-09-18T09:47:00.000-04:00I have served a church that said they didn't have ...I have served a church that said they didn't have a budget -- but in reality they had one, but it was a tacit, informal kind of thing where only a couple of people held the purse strings. For that church, it was a control issue.<BR/><BR/>I suspect that someone -- maybe the the treasurer or who ever writes the checks -- knows a lot more than they are telling you. For many people in the church, the money IS the control. I also suspect that they are not forthcoming with the information because they don't know you yet.<BR/><BR/>I would make a personal visit to the treasurer -- get to know the person and build a relationship. Then ask if you can see the books. From there, you (along with the treasurer, if possible) can begin to build a budget, based on past spending. You can also get an idea of what the plate count is from the deposits.<BR/><BR/>I would also talk to someone higher up -- for me it would be my District Superintendent or Bishop. Ask them for ideas -- and keep them informed about what is happening.<BR/><BR/>I know that in very small churches this is actually a consistent problem in my denomination -- and it's mostly out of ignorance, not malice. If we didn't have the district and conference asking for apportionments and budgets, most of our smaller churches just wouldn't have a budget.Theresa Colemanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12134175277230355640noreply@blogger.com