tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-14710344.post7806494649046437553..comments2023-11-03T05:46:44.728-04:00Comments on RevGalBlogPals: RevGalBookPals Book Discussion Group: Leaving Church by Barbara Brown TaylorStephanie Anthony/She Revhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/10089531643725874239noreply@blogger.comBlogger57125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-14710344.post-31100647508359007372007-04-20T13:25:00.000-04:002007-04-20T13:25:00.000-04:00I stumbled on this blog earlier this week as I fin...I stumbled on this blog earlier this week as I finished BBT's book. I was disappointed that another "rock star" female pastor has abandoned the pulpit. How are we to ever get beyond people's ideas that women cannot do the job if the famous ones keep pulling out proving just that point?<BR/><BR/>I am hoping for someone along the way to point to ways of boundary setting, coping, and sticking with ministry for the long haul. I am called to be a pastor and I want to do it for the rest of my life. I am realizing only a couple of years into the gig that it is tough and it is tempting to pack up and go back to the career world I left to be a pastor. But this is not what God called me to do. How do we cope day to day when we are feeling lonely and isolated? How do we set those all so important boundaries? I want someone to talk about these struggles from a triumphant standpoint and I was hoping BBT would do that. I was discouraged and disappointed in her work and in her witness to the rest of us. <BR/>Quitting makes me sad and that is what I feel she has done with no wisdom for the rest of us.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-14710344.post-46765881278745602342007-04-13T18:25:00.000-04:002007-04-13T18:25:00.000-04:00Finished the book in two days... Echoing other co...Finished the book in two days... Echoing other comments of boundary issues, lacking self-care, etc...<BR/><BR/>All the same, I'm a seminary student, hearing a call, but still in the process of figuring out exactly how i'll live in that call - some of her words expressed what I've felt at various times, and that scared the hell out of me.<BR/><BR/>Just academically knowing that we must take care of ourselves, is different from making that a practice in our daily lives, and i think i need to continue to think about that...youngandcollaredhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16974109190951747067noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-14710344.post-33335982068274608892007-04-02T21:25:00.000-04:002007-04-02T21:25:00.000-04:00Having been Anglican all my life, her experiences ...Having been Anglican all my life, her experiences were not new to me. I agree that she could not set boundaries, but then I can't either. More teaching needed here for clergy and lay, I think. <BR/><BR/>It seems to me that BBT fell in love with God long before she even found the church. So it follows that she probably thought this was the best way to serve and stay close to him. I see her as something of a recluse by nature, and there is no room for that in running a church.<BR/><BR/>The most striking thing I found in the book is the concept of truly keeping the Sabbath holy. This fascinates me, and I am working toward it. I am sure God wants this to happen.<BR/><BR/>I had never heard of BBT till I read this book - didn't know she was famous, but I think it is one of the most profound books I have ever read. Now to read her others.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-14710344.post-2155478510527611522007-04-02T10:14:00.000-04:002007-04-02T10:14:00.000-04:00It has been interesting and helpful to me to read ...It has been interesting and helpful to me to read all the comments on BBT's book. I appreciate the candor and found the discussion very helpful in clarifying my own thoughts. <BR/><BR/>The different responses remind me of the truth in Stanley Fish's book "Is There a Text in this Class"--that meaning in text does not sit waiting to be found--it is created amongst the community of readers. We all bring our questions, hopes, disappointments, and dreams to what we read.<BR/><BR/>That being said, I found the book incredibly helpful. I served as a parish pastor for 8 and a half years and loved the church and the work. It was full and rich: sometimes wonderful, sometimes trying and painful. I wouldn't trade that time for anything. It was a gift. And I learned a lot: about the church, about myself, about call and God and all that. <BR/><BR/>One of the things I learned is that the life of a pastor is incredibly demanding emotionally, spiritually, etc...and it does not readily provide a lot of opportunity to deal ask big structure questions. And our denominations are in such crisis that they do not provide safe havens of hope and nurture either--even the "clergy self care" stuff is one more thing we are supposed to do--for ourselves. <BR/><BR/>I think a product of all that change and anxiety and pressure is the creation of a very narrow space --as I heard Walter Brueggemann put it one time when he was contrasting that space with the wide space of the psalms--a narrow space that typically binds our daily practice of vocation except for those extraordinary moments of epiphany when the world flashes open wide. That is as true for most laypeople as it is for us; the problem is that we are asked to claim and lead toward a much wider horizon--God's horizon. In that narrow space we can ask a lot of questions about how to manage--what tactics work, how to keep going, etc--but it is harder to ask BIG questions about the whole set-up we are a part of. <BR/><BR/>The problem is, I think the church DESPERATELY needs us to be asking those big questions rather than plodding along in that narrow space that defines not only the church, but our whole busy, busy, production oriented culture. In fact, the world God so loved needs us to ask those questions. (This is where the church as "other" in society gives me a bit of a giggle).<BR/><BR/>The need for people to point to that wide space is why I so appreciated BBT's book. In that book I see her following her vocation in powerful ways and doing it through a first person account rather than a diagnosis because that is the voice God is giving her to use right now. I in no way experience her as abandoning her call as a priest or invalidating what came before by where she is called now. Perhaps her present call is to love and respect what the church is doing, but to use her relative freedom, her powerful imagination, and her fame to raise bigger questions about how we are "doing church" and what that "doing" does to the people involved--lay and clergy alike. <BR/><BR/>She doesn't offer grand answers; but she at least starts surfacing the questions. She does that in ways I think it is hard to do when we are in the daily demands of parish pastoring--hard precisely because the work feels so holy and important and their isn't time or energy for the vertigo such wanderings might trigger. She recognizes the power of the call to parish ministry; but she also recognizes she has a different call now. I don't think those two things are unrelated--I think God may have led her into one in order to prepare her for the next. Perhaps her call now is to to break open wider spaces for all of us to ask and imagine in ways that we can't frame while we are in the middle of doing the work. I don't think that present call invalidates her earlier call to the parish--or the possibility that she might be called back one day. In other words, I just wonder if God is doing holy work by allowing her the freedom to "bust trail" as my brother likes to say--to open new, big spaces for questions about how ALL of us are formed, limited, reformed by this life together we call church. And about how the church with all its good and loving intentions often fuels most of its energy on simply "being church" rather than on being scattered about in the world.<BR/><BR/>Which brings me back to the Stanley Fish thing. I am, like BBT, a person who loved being a parish pastor, who respects the work, and who is camped out in the side-yard because God will not lift some of those "wide open space" questions from my heart. Painfully and haltingly I came to accept that I couldn't ask those questions the way I needed to when I was "in" the midst of it all, faithfully doing the work in the way I was formed to do it. So the text for my class--my reading of the book--is formed by that experience. <BR/><BR/><BR/>For all those reasons I am wary of diagnosing BBT's situation as insufficient discernment or as inadequate boundaries or as a failure in self honesty. Is she still working through her experiences: of course, aren't we all still doing that always? Is writing a first person journey the only or best way to do that: who knows? Did she make mistakes or exercise inadequate boundaries? Probably--I have yet to meet a clergy woman or man who hasn't done that--even my mentor, the "king of good boundaries." <BR/><BR/>I do think the rock star preacher thing is a piece or her journey; she does acknowledge that reality a bit when she talks about the church's discussion about not building a "preaching emporium" for her. I wonder though, if her relative silence on that issue is because it would reveal too much about her relationship with the church and the church itself--kind of like the questions people ask themselves about "how much do you tell people after a divorce if you still love the person but know you can't be married to them anymore." I haven't had that experience myself--but I have walked with many people who have. The need to express oneself and the desire to respect an important relationship create a hard line to walk--especially when there are "children" involved--as there are here.<BR/><BR/>Is the book self-indulgent? Maybe, if writing about one's own life and reflections is self-indulgent. But as a favorite feminist aphorism goes, "The personal is political." I wonder if that isn't part of busting new trail--finding our way through the land mines of narrative as redemptive and narrative as self-indulgent. <BR/><BR/>That is all to say, I have always found BBT willing to go to amazing new places with text and with life--whether or not those places are welcomed or encouraged. I think she did that here. And I wonder if what rattles us about it is that the questions are actually more about the space we inhabit and our desire to do well in that space but our lingering questions about whether it is the right kind of space...and whether God might be imagining new kinds of spaces that we can feel but can't yet describe. <BR/><BR/>BBT has the gift of "describe". Perhaps she didn't reach it in this book, but I think she "busted trail."<BR/><BR/>I'm not a regular with you, so thanks for letting me be part of the "conversation." This was an important book for me--a good text for the "class" where I am learning right now.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-14710344.post-52203892818555981992007-03-30T05:21:00.000-04:002007-03-30T05:21:00.000-04:00I'm commenting as one who hasn't quite finished re...I'm commenting as one who hasn't quite finished reading the book yet; I am also writing as one who having worked as a Lay Worker in the church has just been accepted for Ordination.<BR/>I like the honesty BTB feels able to communicate in her writing, but am saddened that that same honesty did not it seems work its way into her day to day living...<BR/>One of the most revalatory moments in my own ministry came when I broke down in tears of frustration over Christophers condition while I was supposed to be a listening ear at a mums and tots group. From that point on my relationship with the mums and theirs with me became more rel and open.... prayer became true prayer.... <BR/>I understand the representative role, especially on a Sunday morning- but even then I endeavour to allow my personality through. It seems BTB felt constrained by her role rather than released into it- something to ponder there.<BR/>Interestingly reading the comments about preparatory training, the Methodist Church in the UK requires its candidates to undergo 2 years of vocational discernment and study before being interviewed for Ordination, more training then follows, this is a good pattern, hard but good- self awareness grows and questions/ problems brought to light- a significant number of folk go on to pursue lay ministry following Foundation Training!Sallyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01759963926280667938noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-14710344.post-6831356165904981312007-03-29T22:42:00.000-04:002007-03-29T22:42:00.000-04:00Hmm... I tried to post a comment yesterday, but ap...Hmm... I tried to post a comment yesterday, but apparently it didn't work!<BR/><BR/>I very much enjoyed this book.<BR/><BR/>It did not at all come across to me as "whiny" or anything or the sort. I appreciated the honesty of it all.<BR/><BR/>Even though I'm nowhere near being ordained -- I'm still working on graduating high school -- many of the stories she told resonated with me. For instance, the pool story. BBT was at a church barbe-cue or something of the sort when everyone began to push everyone else into the pool except her. I get that, and appreciate her telling that story.<BR/><BR/>As for Bishop Willimon's (and others') fears as to women clergy leaving church even more so after reading this book, I think that is unfounded. At least, that was far from the effect it had on me.<BR/><BR/>Did BBT go into the ministry for the "wrong" reasons? I don't know, I"m not the one who has to figure that out. I do know, though, that her congregations must have certainly benefitted spiritually etc., from her being their pastor.<BR/><BR/>Again, I LOVED this book and really appreciated the candor.<BR/><BR/>It was one big long reminder that clergy are human beings too. And that is something many many people forget too often.<BR/><BR/>I've been enjoying the discussion! I would've joined in earlier if this computer would've posted my comment. Ah, well. I'll just cross my fingers this time around!<BR/><BR/>Cheers,<BR/>NatalieAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-14710344.post-83325448083655502982007-03-29T21:49:00.000-04:002007-03-29T21:49:00.000-04:00What great comments. I have enjoyed the dialogue t...What great comments. I have enjoyed the dialogue too. No we are not far from our sister Barbara. I struggle with that Messiah complex if you call it that, not wanting to dissapoint anybody, not saying no when I need to, wanting that rock star status, the list goes on. Sometimes I have a handle on those issues, and sometimes they have a handle on me. I appreciate Barbara's candor. I know that little town she served. And I served a little town like that. It wakens me to the fact that I too could lose myself and not in the way Jesus talked about. In our conference this year two women have chose to live the local church, take a live, go a different direction. I have spoken to one, and understand for her. Have not exactly talked with the other and am still sorting it out.Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14654861033242845082noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-14710344.post-34763707984491320872007-03-29T16:29:00.000-04:002007-03-29T16:29:00.000-04:00Don't forget you can find next month's copy in the...Don't forget you can find next month's copy in the RGBP's online store or by clicking <A HREF="http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0060836946?ie=UTF8&tag=rev09-20&linkCode=as2&camp=1789&creative=9325&creativeASIN=0060836946" REL="nofollow">Christianity for the Rest of Us: How the Neighborhood Church Is Transforming the Faith</A>Cathyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15279097751133383753noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-14710344.post-4150846206882126732007-03-29T12:43:00.000-04:002007-03-29T12:43:00.000-04:00It's funny -- I didn't feel sad at the end of this...It's funny -- I didn't feel sad at the end of this book or outraged or irritated at the whineyness. I felt GOOD at the end of the book because I know that some of my feelings are not isolated -- that I'm not alone in them.<BR/><BR/>The whole book made me feel "Been there. Done that." It made me feel that she was able to emerge from the other side of her experiences and discern that she's been in the wrong place for a while and now she's in the right place.<BR/><BR/>I wonder why she didn't deal with the "rock-star" status thing as well. Maybe it's her blind spot or just not that important to her in her daily life, being outweighed by the heaviness of the collar itself.<BR/><BR/>Here's my take on the whole ministry thing. Each clergy person needs at least one other person that they can be their self with that is not their spouse/sister/best friend. Another clergyperson, a spiritual director, a therapist, whatever. Someone to talk with/to on a regular basis -- someone who knows the weird/strange/different tensions that are found in the position of clergy and particularly clergywomen. I talk to Jesus all the time, but it sure is nice to talk to someone wearing flesh and blood!<BR/><BR/>And this person? Should NEVER be a congregant.Theresa Colemanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12134175277230355640noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-14710344.post-68550157250902525152007-03-29T10:15:00.000-04:002007-03-29T10:15:00.000-04:00First off, I am one of those who reads this blog b...First off, I am one of those who reads this blog but does not have one of my own. I identify with the struggles listed in your stories. I am in my last year of seminary, a second career person,and single. I was highly involved in a church for 15 years prior to seminary.<BR/><BR/>Each week I hear the struggles of trying to make "more time" for more things. Those things may be family, personal time, or other church related events. I read about writing sermons after a full day of Saturday church events, of trying to squeeze in time with your life partners, and I wonder...how different is that from what BBT writes about.<BR/><BR/>I appreciate her candor and honesty about who she was/is and where she has found "The Holy" in her life. <BR/><BR/>My bias comes from my contemplative nature, but I also think it is in that "slowing down" that both the "Church", pastors, and lay people will be transformed by the grace of God. I think BBT found a way to "slow down"...and it isn't what we expected...or what we wanted from "rock star" status.<BR/><BR/>Signed,<BR/>"Thanks for listening"Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-14710344.post-43120768498876703212007-03-29T10:09:00.000-04:002007-03-29T10:09:00.000-04:00I read RevAbi's comments on her own blog and thoug...I read RevAbi's comments on her own blog and thought this point was extremely well made: BBT did not grow up in any church, really; therefore, she didn't have an "in the bone" idea of what being in or leading a church community could be like. <BR/><BR/>Sort of like someone who grew up in an orphanage getting married to someone with 7 children and suddenly being expected to be their momma!<BR/><BR/>Other comment:<BR/>When my childhood priest ran off with our church secretary (I was about 12 at the time) it was the hugest shock and sorrow. But what I learned at that tender age is that priests aren't any more perfect than anyone else.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-14710344.post-44966351826601102252007-03-29T07:47:00.000-04:002007-03-29T07:47:00.000-04:00I'm a little late posting - but I read this back a...I'm a little late posting - but I read this back a while back. I do remember being so 'taken' with BBT's description of her call to this church. It reminded me of my own feelings when I happened into the church I now serve. I was surprised at how her service as pastor ended. I don't know what I expected, but it made me sad to think that she did not feel a 'part' of her church - never in the water with them! That was a warning to me though I'm not sure what to do with it. I've only been at my church 2 years, but I've felt as though I'm a part of the family. I have not felt that distance. Could be my own boundaries...or lack thereof. But, this I know, I don't want to walk alone on this journey!Chilly Fingershttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09364530398695776477noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-14710344.post-80783222945204834552007-03-29T05:52:00.000-04:002007-03-29T05:52:00.000-04:00I'm SO enjoying this discussion. Thank you all.Wha...I'm SO enjoying this discussion. Thank you all.<BR/><BR/>What comes to mind is how desperately we need discernment in our calling and in our self care. Both are vital!<BR/><BR/>And I wonder if anyone would be willing to comment how they got / ge help in these areas - or what help was not forthcoming but really would have been useful ... etc.<BR/><BR/>I'm very intersted :)seethroughfaithhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15041055467020894063noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-14710344.post-89477545423906941252007-03-28T15:45:00.000-04:002007-03-28T15:45:00.000-04:00I read the book in January. Certainly she could ha...I read the book in January. Certainly she could have taken better care of herself and set better boundaries. But I find her assessment of finding God on the margins, and of choosing to be outside of "church" as typically defined is an important critique. As a person who grew up largely outside of the church, and now inside as clergy, I think it is very important to remember that church must be able to change and flow..it is vital and Spirit filled. I think the church gets complacent about doing things as they have been done...while God is trying to do a new thing.<BR/><BR/>I did find it odd that she did not talk about how her "rock star" status affected the ministry. <BR/><BR/>But overall, I found it to be a good read. And I often think of her writing about not realizing she had the best seat in the house until after she left. I think of it sometimes as people say in unison (to me as worship leader) "in the name of JEsus Christ, you are forigven"Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05717810311212306871noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-14710344.post-38584337352870088422007-03-28T12:28:00.000-04:002007-03-28T12:28:00.000-04:00You all inspired me to read the book, so I sat up ...You all inspired me to read the book, so I sat up last night and made it to chapter 8. I wrote some about it at my blog, because I felt it would be too much for the comment section. <BR/><BR/><A HREF="http://vicarofwadley.blogspot.com/2007/03/leaving-church.html" REL="nofollow">my post on the book</A>. Having said that, I wanted to say to rev Dr Mom, that you and I have some similar issues. Having moved here has had me isolated from other females. I have an all male clergy group, but they have accepted me. I am slowing making friends outside of church, ever so slowly. I'll be thinking of you in your situation too. email anytime.Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14654861033242845082noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-14710344.post-23519687677644484122007-03-28T09:38:00.000-04:002007-03-28T09:38:00.000-04:00Great conversation everyone!! I'm just catching up...Great conversation everyone!! <BR/><BR/>I'm just catching up as I didn't get to the computer until last evening, late. <BR/><BR/>I read BBT's book last summer also. I agree with the comments about her lack of boundaries. I remember thinking that this would be a really unfortunate read for someone still in seminary. I would hate for someone starting out in ministry to think that she represents the norm.<BR/><BR/>Nonetheless, I'm looking forward to hearing her speak in Nashville this year.Suehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03407981987874669303noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-14710344.post-6907232480995756522007-03-27T20:32:00.000-04:002007-03-27T20:32:00.000-04:00Y'all's comments pretty much cover my impressions ...Y'all's comments pretty much cover my impressions of the book: I'm not sure I found BBT whiny so much as having quite unrealistic expectations and as others have pointed out, poor boundaries. And the shift from a big city church to a small rural parish much have been huge, but BBT didn't seem to think much about that beforehand--it seems like her move was based more on a desire for a different kind of life than on a sense that that was a ministy that she was called to--in that sense she may have set herself up for burnout and disillusionment.<BR/><BR/>One of the questions was about self-care, and I noted the ways Songbird tries to enact this-all the ways we were encouraged to pursue in our seminar on parish ministry at seminary. I have to confess that I'm not as good at self-care as I ought to be. I've found it impossible so far to find a clergy support group--the ecumenical clergy in my area (all male) have pretty much excluded me since I arrived here, and the other Episcopal clergy I might seek out are good friends with my boss--and since I really need to vent about him sometimes, it just doesn't feel appropriate. I also live in an area where it's difficult to find friends outside the parish. I wonder if these factors didn't impact BBT as well. I compensate so far with email friends and phone friends but it isn't quite the same.<BR/><BR/>Reading this book made me sad, too. When I was discerning my call to the priesthood I read "A Preaching Life" in which BBT talks about discerning her call. To hear her disillusionment and doubts on the other side was hard. If nothing else, her story is a cautionary tale to me to be as careful as I can about discerning where I go next.Rev Dr Momhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11607665272056430039noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-14710344.post-20125629178926754432007-03-27T20:14:00.000-04:002007-03-27T20:14:00.000-04:00Questions raised here and in the book, hit all chu...Questions raised here and in the book, hit all churches in some way. Some may not show up in quite the same way, but they underlie many concerns.<BR/><BR/>I am so glad that they are coming to the front and people have a harder time hiding from them. Not dealing with the deeper things creates a false sense of stability in our faith.<BR/><BR/>The hardest thing is to bring people together to talk about these things without judgements being made.<BR/><BR/>We have too much judging and subtracting people...God's children...us..all!<BR/><BR/>Education is a key thing here too as well as respecting differences. If God loves us all the same where do we get the idea WE can condemn anyone, including ourselves?<BR/><BR/>Micah 6:8 is a good basic premise to walk with. "Do justice, love kindness and walk humbly with your God.."<BR/><BR/>In our church...The United Church of Canada...we work at this and try to include all ways of being God's people. It's not easy, but it also seems that when we do something "large" about our faith, such as ordaining women, gays and lesbians, to name a few... others watch to see what happens before they approach it actively themselves.<BR/><BR/>We are not perfect but are looking for wholeness, so actions and words come together as one, as they did in Jesus own living.<BR/><BR/>There will never be full agreement on many things, but God loves us all the same...we all have the same value, no matter age, gender, sexuality, colour, creed, height, job, where we live...etc.<BR/><BR/>It is how we treat each other that will and does make the difference. We are to love our neighbour as ourselves....poor neighbour if we don't think much of who we are ourselves...right?<BR/><BR/>Don't be afraid to read and ask questions we all get them and have them in us, but are at different stages of doing this....that's okay.<BR/><BR/>We are only asked to love and walk with the most extravagant Lover ...we cannot explain that which cannot be explained...revel in that.. It's like falling into a warm wonderful bath of love..yes, it requires attention, but at the same time...don't be afraid to drown in it.<BR/><BR/>This book leads on to other learning...Free Flying Spirithttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15383200295283942042noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-14710344.post-27350747647073238982007-03-27T17:34:00.000-04:002007-03-27T17:34:00.000-04:00I couldn't put it down...Despite having more or le...I couldn't put it down...Despite having more or less no time at all, I read it in a 24 hour period. Suspect that this was partly because the issues that brought BBT into ministry in the first place are very much mine...Is she being disingenuous, or just incredibly honest with her account of how she came to small church (in the UK, a small church is one like that in my old village, with an average Sunday attendance of 18...but then, most things are different on your side of the Pond) and how she left, I wonder? I loved her for it at the time of reading, but understand the reservations expressed in other comments...As for the sort of issues that should have been addressed by CPE...Again, I'm hugely HUGELY envious about this aspect of eduction for ministry in the States. Nothing like it at all here...and its all too possible to be ministering to others with all sorts of huge unresolved/unrecognised issues still live.<BR/>Will try to blog more about the book over at mine, but not tonight. Bed beckons, insistentlyKathrynhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09171138485811816831noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-14710344.post-1780467537524159422007-03-27T17:31:00.000-04:002007-03-27T17:31:00.000-04:00I have to say what this book meant *for me*. I fe...I have to say what this book meant *for me*. I felt frustrated reading this book. I felt set up -- in the sense that I cannot live up to the expectations that BBT seems to sense for women in ministry. This is all about my stuff, I am sure, but I felt like crap after reading this book. The first chapter BBT talks all about the "terribly important ministry" she is engaged in... uh, what ministry is not terrribly important? I feel cynical typing this, but this book did not make my breasts leak...Alexhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10354677555829675296noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-14710344.post-51597882569062133662007-03-27T17:18:00.000-04:002007-03-27T17:18:00.000-04:00I have to say that I had never heard of BBT until ...I have to say that I had never heard of BBT until one of my fellow students (a woman) commented that she had not helped women who wanted to be ordained because of the "whine factor". I don't know about you, but I get plenty of "Pastor PMS" jokes from some of the (insecure, admittedly) males in the field...<BR/><BR/>I did read the first couple chapters. It strikes me that yes, we all need to find our spaces and places for renewal. But some of us find it "in harness" and some of us find it "in pasture" (to use that horsey metaphor. Overall, I found it depressing and discouraging as someone who is just going back INTO vocational ministry. So I didn't finish it.<BR/><BR/>It kind of reminds me of some of the Oprah books which have such negative and depressing world views. I can't live there right now...<BR/><BR/>Just my penny...<BR/>dDebhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07077252518911858612noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-14710344.post-85386135088894291592007-03-27T17:09:00.000-04:002007-03-27T17:09:00.000-04:00I would like to say something about the rock star ...I would like to say something about the rock star status of preachers in that I serve under a Bishop that has rock star status and everyone loves him, and he likes it that way. However he served briefly as a local pastor, and then went on to teach and write and preach. He has no clue about the small churches or small town churches. I would say more but it would incriminate me and I already said somethings yesterday at a meeting that I shouldn't have said. Me and my big mouth.Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14654861033242845082noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-14710344.post-73720607046232755802007-03-27T16:39:00.000-04:002007-03-27T16:39:00.000-04:00You've hit on a great point Lorna. There is a gre...You've hit on a great point Lorna. There is a great difference between pastoral burnout and discerning that you didn't have a call to begin with. Perhaps that's what bothered me most. She seemed to blame the church for being 'the church.' Does that make sense? We all know that our congregants will take as much of us as we let them. If we get burned out it's both understandable and sad-- but it isn't always the fault of the church. <BR/><BR/>I'm still convinced she just had no clue about what she'd be doing in a small rural Georgia church. She'd worked at the gigantic and wealthy (and wonderful) All Saints in Atlanta during school at Candler (I might be wrong, but I think it was during seminary) and didn't realize she'd have to change toilet paper rolls and lightbulbs (those are actually her words from a sermon I heard her preach at Candler). Add those misconceptions to the rock star idolatry and it's a potent recipe for self-confusion. <BR/><BR/>That said, I'm mighty thankful for her prophetic gifts in the pulpit and will be happy to hear her again when I have the chance. Ultimately, this book was just 'TMI' for me.Priscahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11423440029110619532noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-14710344.post-54056954050370483132007-03-27T15:58:00.000-04:002007-03-27T15:58:00.000-04:00I feel the odd one out here in that I've never hea...I feel the odd one out here in that I've never heard of BBT ... and therefore could probably (possibly) read this book without being influenced by her "fame."<BR/><BR/><BR/>MB does ask a question here about self care (and avoiding burnout) to women in ministry when they are the sole pastor in a small church -and I'd love to hear what the RevGals who are in this position have to say about that.<BR/><BR/>Burnout and depression are very real ... and I read somewhere that healthy insurance for pastors in the USA is sky-high simply because the demands of the job are so high, and there is indeed a high level of burn out and associated health problems ... could someone talk about that?<BR/><BR/>Sometimes church can be a really unloving place - both to the Rev - and also to members of the church - I wonder if the book talks about that at all.<BR/><BR/>(oh and by the way apparently a copy of the book is winging its way to me ... courtesy and blessings of an Amazingly Generous Revgal who's sending me her copy!!!)Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-14710344.post-69048055068754690262007-03-27T15:12:00.000-04:002007-03-27T15:12:00.000-04:00Wyoming is part of a consortium of dioceses workin...Wyoming is part of a consortium of dioceses working on developing baptismal ministry (sometimes called mutual ministry). Works especially well for small churches. Study and discernment results in calling various people for a variety of ministries - preaching, presiding, administration, teaching, deacon, etc - usually 2 or 3 our called by the church to each ministry - including ordination. You can read more at the <A HREF="http://www.mindevelopers.org/" REL="nofollow">Ministry Developers Collaborative</A>Annhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07287169546184325690noreply@blogger.com